behringer vs model d, holy shit.

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behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Justin Maxwell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRiUSf_QFw

this is jawdroppingly accurate. 


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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Sean Ellis-4

There will still be plenty of people saying it sounds thin, there's already people complaining about poor build quality.....




From: Justin Maxwell <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2017 8:42 AM
To: Analog Heaven
Subject: [AH] behringer vs model d, holy shit.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRiUSf_QFw

this is jawdroppingly accurate. 


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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Jason Proctor
it's pretty damn good and certainly close enough for a fraction of the money.

but i'm still hearing the same thing i heard when i compared Voyager or Sub 37 to my Mini - a lack of "air". when the filter on my Mini is all the way open, it seems to open to the stratosphere. the new Moogs, this one included, seems to have a bit more midrange roundness at the cost of no real top.

(youtube audiofarting notwithstanding!)


On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Sean Ellis <[hidden email]> wrote:

There will still be plenty of people saying it sounds thin, there's already people complaining about poor build quality.....




From: Justin Maxwell <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2017 8:42 AM
To: Analog Heaven
Subject: [AH] behringer vs model d, holy shit.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRiUSf_QFw
Hello Everyone, This is a demo of the Behringer model D. I am a beta tester for this unit and I go over some of my first impressions as far as build quality, features, tone quality, and even a direct comparison to a real vintage minimoog model D from 1972, (The Real Test). Note: this vintage minimoog has the rev 2 oscillators, (not ...

this is jawdroppingly accurate. 



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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Kylee Kennedy
In reply to this post by Sean Ellis-4
Behringer poor build quality!?!

Color me shocked.

Not really, 
Kylee 

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Sean Ellis <[hidden email]> wrote:

There will still be plenty of people saying it sounds thin, there's already people complaining about poor build quality.....




From: Justin Maxwell <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2017 8:42 AM
To: Analog Heaven
Subject: [AH] behringer vs model d, holy shit.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRiUSf_QFw
Hello Everyone, This is a demo of the Behringer model D. I am a beta tester for this unit and I go over some of my first impressions as far as build quality, features, tone quality, and even a direct comparison to a real vintage minimoog model D from 1972, (The Real Test). Note: this vintage minimoog has the rev 2 oscillators, (not ...

this is jawdroppingly accurate. 



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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Brian Willoughby
In reply to this post by Jason Proctor
Jason, do you have an original, vintage MiniMoog Model D, or one of the new reissues? I'm confused when you say "the new Moogs" because that could include or exclude the new Model D, depending upon who's judging.

Brian


On Aug 2, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Jason Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> but i'm still hearing the same thing i heard when i compared Voyager or Sub 37 to my Mini - a lack of "air". when the filter on my Mini is all the way open, it seems to open to the stratosphere. the new Moogs, this one included, seems to have a bit more midrange roundness at the cost of no real top.

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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Jason Proctor
sorry for the confusion. 

i have a 1975 Model D (67xx, old osc boards).

personally i exclude the reissue from the "new Moog" collection :-)



On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Brian Willoughby <[hidden email]> wrote:
Jason, do you have an original, vintage MiniMoog Model D, or one of the new reissues? I'm confused when you say "the new Moogs" because that could include or exclude the new Model D, depending upon who's judging.

Brian


On Aug 2, 2017, at 4:35 PM, Jason Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> but i'm still hearing the same thing i heard when i compared Voyager or Sub 37 to my Mini - a lack of "air". when the filter on my Mini is all the way open, it seems to open to the stratosphere. the new Moogs, this one included, seems to have a bit more midrange roundness at the cost of no real top.


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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Eric Frampton
In reply to this post by Justin Maxwell
I hate to admit it, but yeah, it’s really close. Certainly much closer than it oughtta be considering the ~$3100 price difference between it and a reissue Moog D.

Based on Jareth’s demo, to me there’s slightly less bass on the Behringer D - I wouldn’t call it “thin” though, it’s more like the difference between an OB-Xa and an OB-8. And I agree with Jason Proctor that there’s some “air” missing from the BehriD's filter, too. It’s like they shaved off some of the top and the bottom.

Also I noticed some differences in the harmonics of the square waves as Jareth was comparing those.

Sean Ellis mentioned that folks are already complaining about poor build quality, which makes me wonder how many of prototypes are in the field for people to be able to knowledgeably report on that, rather than assuming it’s built cheaply ‘cause so much previous Behringer stuff was. One would hope that having Midas engineers in the house, Behringer would’ve learned something about how to build a better box.

Jawdroppingly accurate, indeed.

e

On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:42 PM, Justin Maxwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRiUSf_QFw

this is jawdroppingly accurate. 


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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Brian Willoughby
In reply to this post by Jason Proctor
On Aug 2, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Jason Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> personally i exclude the reissue from the "new Moog" collection :-)

That was my assumption. Thanks for the confirmation. If the new Model D filter didn't sound like the original, I'm sure everyone would be screaming.

Brian

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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Quincas Moreira
The demo guy says it's a solid build, I'm inclined to believe him 

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Brian Willoughby <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Aug 2, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Jason Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:
> personally i exclude the reissue from the "new Moog" collection :-)

That was my assumption. Thanks for the confirmation. If the new Model D filter didn't sound like the original, I'm sure everyone would be screaming.

Brian




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Quincas Moreira
Test Pilot at VBrazil Modular
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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Brian Willoughby
The jacks aren't secured to the panel, so they're more likely to break over time. Granted, the demo guy said he was concerned about them at first glance, but changed his mind. I'd wait until people have gigged with the Uli D before banking on how solid they are.

I've seen people return Behringer gear two or three times due to jacks that broke when someone stepped on a cable on stage. I don't doubt that Behringer have stepped up their game since the B-Control BCF2000, but the laws of physics don't change. A PCB mount jack simply cannot be as solid as a panel-mount jack. Maybe some owners won't use those jacks, maybe others will spend a little extra and create a panel-mounted breakout for those signals that could act as strain relief, but the default is less solid.

Perhaps the knobs and switches are higher quality than the jacks, but I'm guessing they're all PCB mount without being secured to the panel. A metal enclosure is great for noise shielding, but it doesn't help mechanically unless the most frequently-used parts are mounted to the enclosure.

I'm not surprised. Like most Behringer gear, this is designed and priced to be disposable. Look forward to future generations finding millions of these in the landfill.

Brian


On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Quincas Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The demo guy says it's a solid build, I'm inclined to believe him
>
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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Giles Ward-2
This is standard stuff for cheap gear though.  Volcas, Electribes, TB303s!

Being a fairly simple analogue design, it could be possible to take the
PCB out and run wires to a custom panel with full size panel mount pots,
  switches and jacks.

On 03/08/2017 02:10, Brian Willoughby wrote:

> The jacks aren't secured to the panel, so they're more likely to break over time. Granted, the demo guy said he was concerned about them at first glance, but changed his mind. I'd wait until people have gigged with the Uli D before banking on how solid they are.
>
> I've seen people return Behringer gear two or three times due to jacks that broke when someone stepped on a cable on stage. I don't doubt that Behringer have stepped up their game since the B-Control BCF2000, but the laws of physics don't change. A PCB mount jack simply cannot be as solid as a panel-mount jack. Maybe some owners won't use those jacks, maybe others will spend a little extra and create a panel-mounted breakout for those signals that could act as strain relief, but the default is less solid.
>
> Perhaps the knobs and switches are higher quality than the jacks, but I'm guessing they're all PCB mount without being secured to the panel. A metal enclosure is great for noise shielding, but it doesn't help mechanically unless the most frequently-used parts are mounted to the enclosure.
>
> I'm not surprised. Like most Behringer gear, this is designed and priced to be disposable. Look forward to future generations finding millions of these in the landfill.
>
> Brian
>
>
> On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Quincas Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The demo guy says it's a solid build, I'm inclined to believe him
>>
>
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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Quincas Moreira
I predict some people will do precisely that, wire out the guts of this to a custom Minimoog clone panel with a good midi keyboard built in..   Still cheaper than a reissue or a vintage, just as solid, nearly same sound...

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 8:24 PM, Giles Ward <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is standard stuff for cheap gear though.  Volcas, Electribes, TB303s!

Being a fairly simple analogue design, it could be possible to take the PCB out and run wires to a custom panel with full size panel mount pots,  switches and jacks.


On 03/08/2017 02:10, Brian Willoughby wrote:
The jacks aren't secured to the panel, so they're more likely to break over time. Granted, the demo guy said he was concerned about them at first glance, but changed his mind. I'd wait until people have gigged with the Uli D before banking on how solid they are.

I've seen people return Behringer gear two or three times due to jacks that broke when someone stepped on a cable on stage. I don't doubt that Behringer have stepped up their game since the B-Control BCF2000, but the laws of physics don't change. A PCB mount jack simply cannot be as solid as a panel-mount jack. Maybe some owners won't use those jacks, maybe others will spend a little extra and create a panel-mounted breakout for those signals that could act as strain relief, but the default is less solid.

Perhaps the knobs and switches are higher quality than the jacks, but I'm guessing they're all PCB mount without being secured to the panel. A metal enclosure is great for noise shielding, but it doesn't help mechanically unless the most frequently-used parts are mounted to the enclosure.

I'm not surprised. Like most Behringer gear, this is designed and priced to be disposable. Look forward to future generations finding millions of these in the landfill.

Brian


On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Quincas Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:
The demo guy says it's a solid build, I'm inclined to believe him





--
Quincas Moreira
Test Pilot at VBrazil Modular
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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Brian Willoughby
In reply to this post by Giles Ward-2
Exactly! I'm not criticizing Behringer for making this cheap. Any improvements along the lines of building this thing like a tank would increase the labor cost and reduce the reason to buy it instead of the Moog reissue.

In fact, someone could make a custom panel design via Front Panel Express, and then lots of users could participate in a group buy of panels. Might even be possible to build a full enclosure, not just the front panel.

Brian


On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:24 PM, Giles Ward <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is standard stuff for cheap gear though.  Volcas, Electribes, TB303s!
>
> Being a fairly simple analogue design, it could be possible to take the PCB out and run wires to a custom panel with full size panel mount pots,  switches and jacks.
>
> On 03/08/2017 02:10, Brian Willoughby wrote:
>> The jacks aren't secured to the panel, so they're more likely to break over time. Granted, the demo guy said he was concerned about them at first glance, but changed his mind. I'd wait until people have gigged with the Uli D before banking on how solid they are.
>> I've seen people return Behringer gear two or three times due to jacks that broke when someone stepped on a cable on stage. I don't doubt that Behringer have stepped up their game since the B-Control BCF2000, but the laws of physics don't change. A PCB mount jack simply cannot be as solid as a panel-mount jack. Maybe some owners won't use those jacks, maybe others will spend a little extra and create a panel-mounted breakout for those signals that could act as strain relief, but the default is less solid.
>> Perhaps the knobs and switches are higher quality than the jacks, but I'm guessing they're all PCB mount without being secured to the panel. A metal enclosure is great for noise shielding, but it doesn't help mechanically unless the most frequently-used parts are mounted to the enclosure.
>> I'm not surprised. Like most Behringer gear, this is designed and priced to be disposable. Look forward to future generations finding millions of these in the landfill.
>> Brian
>> On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Quincas Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> The demo guy says it's a solid build, I'm inclined to believe him
>>


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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Alexander Smith
Oh wow. PolyFrankenMoog please.

> On 3 Aug 2017, at 11:37, Brian Willoughby <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Exactly! I'm not criticizing Behringer for making this cheap. Any improvements along the lines of building this thing like a tank would increase the labor cost and reduce the reason to buy it instead of the Moog reissue.
>
> In fact, someone could make a custom panel design via Front Panel Express, and then lots of users could participate in a group buy of panels. Might even be possible to build a full enclosure, not just the front panel.
>
> Brian
>
>
>> On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:24 PM, Giles Ward <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> This is standard stuff for cheap gear though.  Volcas, Electribes, TB303s!
>>
>> Being a fairly simple analogue design, it could be possible to take the PCB out and run wires to a custom panel with full size panel mount pots,  switches and jacks.
>>
>>> On 03/08/2017 02:10, Brian Willoughby wrote:
>>> The jacks aren't secured to the panel, so they're more likely to break over time. Granted, the demo guy said he was concerned about them at first glance, but changed his mind. I'd wait until people have gigged with the Uli D before banking on how solid they are.
>>> I've seen people return Behringer gear two or three times due to jacks that broke when someone stepped on a cable on stage. I don't doubt that Behringer have stepped up their game since the B-Control BCF2000, but the laws of physics don't change. A PCB mount jack simply cannot be as solid as a panel-mount jack. Maybe some owners won't use those jacks, maybe others will spend a little extra and create a panel-mounted breakout for those signals that could act as strain relief, but the default is less solid.
>>> Perhaps the knobs and switches are higher quality than the jacks, but I'm guessing they're all PCB mount without being secured to the panel. A metal enclosure is great for noise shielding, but it doesn't help mechanically unless the most frequently-used parts are mounted to the enclosure.
>>> I'm not surprised. Like most Behringer gear, this is designed and priced to be disposable. Look forward to future generations finding millions of these in the landfill.
>>> Brian
>>>> On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Quincas Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> The demo guy says it's a solid build, I'm inclined to believe him
>>>
>
>
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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Brent Busby
In reply to this post by Quincas Moreira
Quincas Moreira <[hidden email]> writes:

> I predict some people will do precisely that, wire out the guts of this to
> a custom Minimoog clone panel with a good midi keyboard built in..   Still
> cheaper than a reissue or a vintage, just as solid, nearly same sound...

I'd like a rackmount.  SE Midimoogs are expensive and hard to find.

--
- Brent Busby + ===============================================
                + With the rise of social networking
--  Studio   -- + sites, computers are making people
--  Amadeus  -- + easier to use every day.
----------------+ ===============================================
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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Brian Willoughby
In reply to this post by Alexander Smith
Sorry, but it wouldn't work like any other poly except the Oberheim Four Voice / Eight Voice.

None of the controls except the Mod Amount can be controlled remotely. This means you would have to dial each individual voice manually to produce the same patch. In other words, I imagine that few of the Uli D pots are CV, but instead are direct resistive elements in each corresponding circuit. Exceptions would be the VCO pitch, VCF frequency, and maybe a few others that take CV from other sections. The Contour controls are almost certainly resistive, not CV, as would be the Emphasis, Glide, all of the Volume controls, etc.

If you can find 4-gang or even 8-gang pots, it might be possible to get all voices sounding roughly the same without tweaking separate knobs.

Considering the price, it's an interesting idea, but it wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

Brian


On Aug 2, 2017, at 7:05 PM, Alexander Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Oh wow. PolyFrankenMoog please.
>
> On 3 Aug 2017, at 11:37, Brian Willoughby <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Exactly! I'm not criticizing Behringer for making this cheap. Any improvements along the lines of building this thing like a tank would increase the labor cost and reduce the reason to buy it instead of the Moog reissue.
>>
>> In fact, someone could make a custom panel design via Front Panel Express, and then lots of users could participate in a group buy of panels. Might even be possible to build a full enclosure, not just the front panel.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>> On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:24 PM, Giles Ward <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> This is standard stuff for cheap gear though.  Volcas, Electribes, TB303s!
>>>
>>> Being a fairly simple analogue design, it could be possible to take the PCB out and run wires to a custom panel with full size panel mount pots,  switches and jacks.

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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Brent Busby
In reply to this post by Eric Frampton
While we're talking about Jareth Lackey (SynthPro), he's an excellent
Moog tech.  He serviced/restored my Multimoog, and he did far more work
than I ever asked him to or expected, and he was very fast.

--
- Brent Busby + ===============================================
                + With the rise of social networking
--  Studio   -- + sites, computers are making people
--  Amadeus  -- + easier to use every day.
----------------+ ===============================================
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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Steven Clements
In reply to this post by Giles Ward-2
Now we're cooking with gas!

Mount the guts into a sold case and panel mount the interactive bits!  Good call Giles!


Steven

On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 7:24 PM, Giles Ward <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is standard stuff for cheap gear though.  Volcas, Electribes, TB303s!

Being a fairly simple analogue design, it could be possible to take the PCB out and run wires to a custom panel with full size panel mount pots,  switches and jacks.


On 03/08/2017 02:10, Brian Willoughby wrote:
The jacks aren't secured to the panel, so they're more likely to break over time. Granted, the demo guy said he was concerned about them at first glance, but changed his mind. I'd wait until people have gigged with the Uli D before banking on how solid they are.

I've seen people return Behringer gear two or three times due to jacks that broke when someone stepped on a cable on stage. I don't doubt that Behringer have stepped up their game since the B-Control BCF2000, but the laws of physics don't change. A PCB mount jack simply cannot be as solid as a panel-mount jack. Maybe some owners won't use those jacks, maybe others will spend a little extra and create a panel-mounted breakout for those signals that could act as strain relief, but the default is less solid.

Perhaps the knobs and switches are higher quality than the jacks, but I'm guessing they're all PCB mount without being secured to the panel. A metal enclosure is great for noise shielding, but it doesn't help mechanically unless the most frequently-used parts are mounted to the enclosure.

I'm not surprised. Like most Behringer gear, this is designed and priced to be disposable. Look forward to future generations finding millions of these in the landfill.

Brian


On Aug 2, 2017, at 6:01 PM, Quincas Moreira <[hidden email]> wrote:
The demo guy says it's a solid build, I'm inclined to believe him



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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

John Emond-2
In reply to this post by Jason Proctor
Very neat. Can't wait try one out.
 
One little critique, the square D logo on the front panel bugs me. Hey didn't they make fuse boxes? Big model logos on my MonoPoly and PolySix are okay though. 

It must just be that I have been seeing Minimoog panels without this for nearly 5 decades. The first time I played a mini was in a music store. For some reason it was plugged into a HiWatt guitar stack. I was messing around with it, not really knowing what to do, trying to get a grooving baseline; but only achieving flatulence. All the same I was so blown away by it that I said to the middle aged guy behind me "like wow, imagine what Beethoven would have done with one of these". He calmly replied "He probably would have gone deaf sooner.

I wonder how hard it would be to swap out the jacks for panel mount without major modifications.

Cheers,

John
Monde Synthesizer gives you More

On Aug 2, 2017, at 7:35 PM, Jason Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:

it's pretty damn good and certainly close enough for a fraction of the money.

but i'm still hearing the same thing i heard when i compared Voyager or Sub 37 to my Mini - a lack of "air". when the filter on my Mini is all the way open, it seems to open to the stratosphere. the new Moogs, this one included, seems to have a bit more midrange roundness at the cost of no real top.

(youtube audiofarting notwithstanding!)


On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Sean Ellis <[hidden email]> wrote:

There will still be plenty of people saying it sounds thin, there's already people complaining about poor build quality.....




From: Justin Maxwell <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2017 8:42 AM
To: Analog Heaven
Subject: [AH] behringer vs model d, holy shit.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRiUSf_QFw
Hello Everyone, This is a demo of the Behringer model D. I am a beta tester for this unit and I go over some of my first impressions as far as build quality, features, tone quality, and even a direct comparison to a real vintage minimoog model D from 1972, (The Real Test). Note: this vintage minimoog has the rev 2 oscillators, (not ...

this is jawdroppingly accurate. 



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Re: behringer vs model d, holy shit.

Sean Ellis-4

Looks like it'll be easy to switch the jacks, there's plenty of room for more patch points too (CV/Gate out etc).



https://ask.audio/articles/behringer-minimoog-model-d-synth-prototype-up-and-running





From: John Emond <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2017 12:55 PM
To: Jason Proctor
Cc: Sean Ellis; Justin Maxwell; Analog Heaven
Subject: Re: [AH] behringer vs model d, holy shit.
 
Very neat. Can't wait try one out.
 
One little critique, the square D logo on the front panel bugs me. Hey didn't they make fuse boxes? Big model logos on my MonoPoly and PolySix are okay though. 

It must just be that I have been seeing Minimoog panels without this for nearly 5 decades. The first time I played a mini was in a music store. For some reason it was plugged into a HiWatt guitar stack. I was messing around with it, not really knowing what to do, trying to get a grooving baseline; but only achieving flatulence. All the same I was so blown away by it that I said to the middle aged guy behind me "like wow, imagine what Beethoven would have done with one of these". He calmly replied "He probably would have gone deaf sooner.

I wonder how hard it would be to swap out the jacks for panel mount without major modifications.

Cheers,

John
Monde Synthesizer gives you More

On Aug 2, 2017, at 7:35 PM, Jason Proctor <[hidden email]> wrote:

it's pretty damn good and certainly close enough for a fraction of the money.

but i'm still hearing the same thing i heard when i compared Voyager or Sub 37 to my Mini - a lack of "air". when the filter on my Mini is all the way open, it seems to open to the stratosphere. the new Moogs, this one included, seems to have a bit more midrange roundness at the cost of no real top.

(youtube audiofarting notwithstanding!)


On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Sean Ellis <[hidden email]> wrote:

There will still be plenty of people saying it sounds thin, there's already people complaining about poor build quality.....




From: Justin Maxwell <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 3 August 2017 8:42 AM
To: Analog Heaven
Subject: [AH] behringer vs model d, holy shit.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pRiUSf_QFw
Hello Everyone, This is a demo of the Behringer model D. I am a beta tester for this unit and I go over some of my first impressions as far as build quality, features, tone quality, and even a direct comparison to a real vintage minimoog model D from 1972, (The Real Test). Note: this vintage minimoog has the rev 2 oscillators, (not ...

this is jawdroppingly accurate. 



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